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Separated from their husbands, tens of thousands of unemployed black women are forced to raise their families in barren rural environments they may never have so much as visiteid. With few jobs in the overcrowded BantusWns, subsistence farming is often the only means of survival. Health care is poor or non- existent. UNESCO estimated In 1970 that one half of all black children die before the age of six. I Tanzanian leader behaves as a Bokassa I feel bad When Amin behaves a? Amin, 1 feel bad. There is a sense in which I am also like those blessed racists who point to Bokassa or Amin and say, ‘‘Ah! look at Black Africa,\ But they don’t point to Hitler and say, “This is a white man.” Or to Salazar or Franco and say, “This is a white man.” They simply say, “This is Hitler This is Franco This is Salazar ” Nyerere speaks on US. and other topics But with Africa they generalize. They say, “Sec what is happening in Africa?” I could just as easily point to Portugal and say, \Sec what is happening in Europe?” Where black families are permitted to live in white South Africa, as in Soweto near Johannesburg, a woman’s right of residence is based on her employment, or that of her husband. Should he lose his job, die, or divorce her, she and her children could be “endorsed out.” by Laurie Garrett So you say what does Bokassa represent? Bokassa is a tyrant. Amin is a tyrant. And the world has had tyrants. They never started in Africa. Bokassa’s hero was Napoleon. Amin quoted Hitler. So what is peculiar about the tyrant in Africa? (PNS)—Q.; 1 know you are hesitant to speak about the political affairs of another nation, but you made it clear in your book Crusade for Liberation that the Third World awaits eagerly the results of an American Presidential election. How will you be viewing the elections in 1980? NYERERE: Our position is always that elections in the United States affect our interests, and therefore we shall give it keen interest. But let me put it this way (and I hope there will be no misunderstanding about it): The United States is capitalist. It is imperialist. It’s a superpower. Hegemonic. The moral stature which was pUt forward by President Carter made life very easy for us because here is a person you can sit down and talk to and he will understand what you are talking to him about, and if we say, “We are not fighting for communism in Southern Africa,” he will understand that we are not fighting for communism. If I differ with him he will not think that I have horns. So, it can make personal relations easier. I’m not sure it makes all that much difference in policies. Policies are the policies of the power structure of the United States. And so, we of the Third World naturally always take an interest in the elections of your country and who is going to be elected, but if the United States is disappointing the Third World, the problem cannot be Carter. The problem is the system. To put it the other way around, also, I would be claiming a superior position for Africa if Africa never produced any tyrants at all. I don't claim any superior position for Africans. We’re not saints. We produce tyrants. My real problem—what I've been complaining about, is the tendency among Africans to feel shy in front of these tyrants, to not denounce them as tyrants. An African feels ashamed wherv he sees a tyrant instead of being angry. Additionally, women in the Bantustans often face the white South African enforcement of its false notion of “tribal custom” regarding women; they are allowed no legal or property rights and must be specifically bound to a husband or male relative-guardian. I , Finally, the byzantinc determination of one’s race in South Africa commonly leads to theforced separation of mother, children, husband, and parents to prevent mixing of the races or tribes. So 1 don’t think it’s a development issue in Africa any more than in Europe, Latin America, Asia. All these continents have had their tyrants These are not racialist tyrants. They are just tyrants of history! Q : You’ve chosen to follow socialist paths of development for the Third World, not just in Africa. Tanzanian socialism is obviously different from other forms. How would you describe its ideology? NYERERE; 1 would describe our ideology as socialist. That’s all. We re fighting against capitalism, all of us. We’re trying to establish, I hope, just societies, healthy relationships between individuals We’ve started from different bases. 1 am not a Marxist. 1 do accept the economics of Marxism. I do not accept sojrie of the philosophies of Marxism. But even the economics have some difficulty. Classically, Marxism is a socialism of the rich. It is a socialism which starts with highly developed capitalism, a highly developed proletariat. At present it is the United States, under Marxism, which is really ripe for socialism. My problem is, having accepted socialism as the right development for my country, whether 1 should nurture capitalism until I have the proletariat. In Tanzania the dominant class is not the proletariat, it’s the peasants. Socialism here will have to be built using peasants. We have not inherited anything created by capitalism. We have to create wealth here. And so starting from a different base, our methodology is likely to be different. But I hope the objective is going to be the same. I hope we shall succeed with different methods to establish humane societies where human beings can live as human beings and not just be dominated by property. Property was never intended to dominate human beings. Property was always intended to serve human beings. Wealth never was intended to live side by side with poverty, ever. Wealth was always intended to discover what light is to darkness; where there is wealth, poverty disappears; where there is light, darkness disappears .But capitalism succeeds to work out this miracle—that wealth can live side by side with poverty, because wealth is used as power. Socialism with poverty—equality with poverty—is a big problem. And so socialists have accepted the language of affluence. I think this is a shame. Because that is where Europe stood. I am still using the same kind of language, as if the wealth was there. It is not there. We have got to create this wealth. so If fundamental change is coming to South Africa, it must be reflected in Bantustan policy, the cornerstone, in'fact of the entire edifice of apartheid. Following the internationally publicized months of strikes and rioting in Soweto. South Africa has accelerated its Bantustan independence timetable. Concessions were granted the Soweto students in 1976 and 77. In 1978 the new Prime Minister, P.W. Botha broadened these concessions. But what docs Botha think about the Bantustans and apartheid in general? I don’t know whether one is being fair or not, but 1 say a good President makes life easier for us. Because you can sit down; you can discuss. But the problems of Tanzania will remain the same. The problems of the Third World will remain the same. Why? Not because of the person who is \in the White House, but because of the power structure of the United States. And this will continue, elections or no elections. “1 do not believe in power sharing, but power division .” In other words, not half a loaf, but crumbs. Q,; The Carter Administration—even the progressive wing represented by Andrew Young—has actively supported South African investment. How have you viewed the Carter South Africa policy? NYERERE; We have discussed this problem, and 1 have not agreed with the Carter Administration. You see, there arc two rationales given for continued investment in South Africa. The first is democracy. They say it would be undemocratic to force companies to do something they don’t want to do. And the people do not support opposition to apartheid, so it would be undemocratic to force them to. But this is using democracy as an excuse to justify evil. Because you sec, if democracy was really the issue, then the President would say to the people, “Look here, we have a problem in South Africa, and I want your support on this.” And so this government must carry out an education process to educate their people that it is wrong, it is immoral to support an immoral government in South Africa with investments. I see no education. Just the excuse that we are a democratic state. Next: Black Resistance, White Courts, Law and Army an of ng euzAKTH hoIke FOR THE USE OFHWTE PERSONS tremn. STAD fOKT ELIZABETH KEWWIS6EVWNG AULEENUK VW ME GEBRUIK WUAHKES: IfiOLOm YASfBHAYl Secondly, they argue that those investments 'will do good for the Africans in South Africa. That, in actual fact, if you stop them ft is the Africans that are going to suffer. I say those Africans arc suffering enough. Well, inflict that little additional suffering also. Or, if you are really doing it for the good of the Africans, then don’t remove those dividends, just pass them to the Fredom Fighters. Really, investing in South Africa is blood money. h < ISAZISO 1 uwarrafsir ngaba MAUtt MSUMl/tA B CENTUB MTHIMT TmT ' mmm * S0C«Pl>IKAnBI«A30COT varswmmt mmntam tmum. m omirmt mrmtmmr vsweau «». ' *' *r w*r aroma MW NMNK msauK mmmtiua. Q.: Tanzania has sought a course of agricultural development and self- reliance. How would you look at the strategy that you have been following so far? NYERERE: We can feed ourselves because of our land distribution. We do not have landlords. We arc a peasant country. The peasants have land, and they can grow what they like. Therefore, if the rains are all right, you can trust the peasants will produce all the food that they need, and enough surplus for the small urban and service population of Tanzania. So that gives us a base from where we can move. But structurally, farming has not changed. Technologically, farming has not changed. Therefore, our agriculture cannot support a rapidly growing industrialization. We must industrialize. But if the rtlomcntum of industrialization was to pick up, become rapid, before our farming has become more efficient, we would run into trouble. And that is our next stage, which is making this farming produce more good surplus of food and also raw materials for our industries. Q.: Turning to Rhodesia, many Western observers predict that that country faces years of civil war after majority rule is placed in power. The scenario calls for fighting between the forces of Nkomo, Mugabe and Muzorewa. And this outlook becomes a sort of “benevolent” rationale for continued Western involvement in Zimbabwe—to prevent civil war. What do you think of ihis outlook? And the civil war projections? NYERERE: I must say that it is a great concern for me. I will confess I don’t like the fact that there are two armies fighting in Zimbabwe. No liberation—no country—has had two armies. You can’t have a country with two armies! But you know ZAPU and ZAND are fond of the British parliamentary model. I say to them, “LocJk, if you follow the British model, then yo.u must have only one army because Britain has only one army.” I have told them they must overcome this problem, and we have discussed it until I think they don’t even want to hear from me anymore. But the situation has not changed. I am concerned about this, and I think if the West is concerned about this as well, then this is a good concern on the part of the West. It isn’t a justification to meddle in the country’s affairs, but it is reason for concern..: Before we Idok at the rational course of development in the post-colonial period, I wonder if we could look at developm’ent gone astray. Where do the Idi Amins and Emperor Bokassas come from? What do they represent historically in terms of post- colonial development for Africa? . - A stwcsidiu nxtnsrnettv umim mm * «. M( 30SCNTS X ... 2£Z!Z™* mi *”****** ** KwraiM. mi fMut u Mf ajubushuk nitm mum sr*~ tot nMUfirm Mf The problem we have now really is the major problem of the international community. This year we are consuming less oil than we consumed in 1972. But we are paying nine times as much for it. You can’t call a country “developing” when today it is consuming less oil than it was seven years ago. The only reason why we're not collapsing is also because of some of our agricultural successes I’ve been talking about. Otherwise, quite frankly, a country like this could just cojlapse. But this year I am going to spend half of our export earnings on oil, it is not going to be very easy to pay for the improvement of our farming techniques which we need. This is a vital problem of all Third World countries, the non-oil producing countries. NYERERE: Sometimes I think I, also, am a racist. When a Bokassa -I 79 I A COMMUTER BREAKFAST Open To ALL Students. Faculty, & Staff FRIDAY, OCTOBER 26 ■ from 8 am - noon In The Fillmore Room of Squire Hall v (MSC) 10c Doughnuts Free Beverages with special guests from THE EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY PROGRAM Co-sponsored by SA Commuter Affairs and The Educational Opportunity Program
